Restaurierung Technics sp10

    Einige gewerbliche Anbieter von Panzerholzargen gibt es auch bereits am Markt. Einer davon stammt aus UK und heisst Artisan Fidelity. Wenn ich mir dann so anschaue was dieser für ein Komplettgerät bestehend aus SP10 MKII und Panzerholzzarge nimmt, ist das schon eine Nummer! Hier soll ein SP10 MKII in einer Panzerholzzarge mit "einfachem" Gehäuse für die Elektronik 10.000€ kosten. Unter "einfach" meine ich hier, dass nicht mal das Bedienfeld geändert wurde, sondern dass aus dem original Alugehäuse ausgeschraubt und wieder in den Deckel eines Standart 19" Gehäuses, verbaut wurde. Wenn mam dann Das Gerät (SP10) abzieht, welches am Markt inkl. Revidierung unter 2.000€ zu bekommen ist. liegt die Zarge bei 8.000€!!!!!

    Hier ein Link zu einem auf dem Secondhandmarkt angeboten Artisan Fidelity Gerätes.

    http://www.audioasylumtrader.c…-African-Padauk/164927Ich denke auch der Hinweis "original Verpackung" lässt einem den kalten Schauer den Rücken runter laufen. Wenn das Gerät tatsächlich ohne eine mechanische Entlastung des Lagerspiegel aus Torlon versendet wurde, ist dieser wahrscheinlich schon nach dem ersten Versand beschädigt gewesen.

    Schade nur für den nächsten Käufer dieses Gerätes, der dann wahrscheinlich gar nicht zum Genuss einer "funktionstüchtigen" Einheit gelangt, da er wahrscheinlich auch den Motor nicht geöffnet hat um die Innereien zu begutachten. Einen Rumpelwert, der denen wie einst bei den original Geräten bei der Erstauslieferungen entspricht, ist sicherlich nicht mehr zu gewährleiten. Ich finde es immer schade, wenn es bei solch hohen VK Beträgen, um ein paar "€" für ein kleines aber nicht unwichtiges Teil einer Motorlagerentlastung, scheitert. Villeicht ist diese aber auch bei der Erstauslieferung montiert gewesen, danach aus der original Verpackung verschwunden und daher hat man auf das gute alte "blaue" Textilklebeband zurückgegriffen.

    Zitat von analogschmaus

    Einige gewerbliche Anbieter von Panzerholzargen gibt es auch bereits am Markt. Einer davon stammt aus UK und heisst Artisan Fidelity. Wenn ich mir dann so anschaue was dieser für ein Komplettgerät bestehend aus SP10 MKII und Panzerholzzarge nimmt, ist das schon eine Nummer! Hier soll ein SP10 MKII in einer Panzerholzzarge mit "einfachem" Gehäuse für die Elektronik 10.000€ kosten. Unter "einfach" meine ich hier, dass nicht mal das Bedienfeld geändert wurde, sondern dass aus dem original Alugehäuse ausgeschraubt und wieder in den Deckel eines Standart 19" Gehäuses, verbaut wurde. Wenn mam dann Das Gerät (SP10) abzieht, welches am Markt inkl. Revidierung unter 2.000€ zu bekommen ist. liegt die Zarge bei 8.000€!!!!!

    Hier ein Link zu einem auf dem Secondhandmarkt angeboten Artisan Fidelity Gerätes.

    http://www.audioasylumtrader.c…-African-Padauk/164927Ich denke auch der Hinweis "original Verpackung" lässt einem den kalten Schauer den Rücken runter laufen. Wenn das Gerät tatsächlich ohne eine mechanische Entlastung des Lagerspiegel aus Torlon versendet wurde, ist dieser wahrscheinlich schon nach dem ersten Versand beschädigt gewesen.


    Schade nur für den nächsten Käufer dieses Gerätes, der dann wahrscheinlich gar nicht zum Genuss einer "funktionstüchtigen" Einheit gelangt, da er wahrscheinlich auch den Motor nicht geöffnet hat um die Innereien zu begutachten. Einen Rumpelwert, der denen wie einst bei den original Geräten bei der Erstauslieferungen entspricht, ist sicherlich nicht mehr zu gewährleiten. Ich finde es immer schade, wenn es bei solch hohen VK Beträgen, um ein paar "€" für ein kleines aber nicht unwichtiges Teil einer Motorlagerentlastung, scheitert. Villeicht ist diese aber auch bei der Erstauslieferung montiert gewesen, danach aus der original Verpackung verschwunden und daher hat man auf das gute alte "blaue" Textilklebeband zurückgegriffen.

    was meinst du genau mit nach ersten Versand beschädigt? Wenn kein Torlon, dann ein Nylon Artiger Kunstoff. Torlon wird als besserer High Tech Kunstoff verwendet neuerdings. Zumindest mein letzter Stand. Hab Torlon aus US Bestellt, passend zur Welle bzw Lager. Mein SP 10 kam mit viel zittern aus Ungarn und nach Ungarn von England aus. Wer und was da über die Jahre gemacht hat, weiss ich nicht. Jedenfalls läuft meiner. Heisst aber nicht, das der nicht komplett revidiert werden muss. Hab viel gelesen von Revidierern am Markt und möchte niemand schlecht machen. Nur war bislang kaum die rede einer Mechanik Revision, oder ich hab was überlesen. Das macht Vertrauen schwierig. Finde es schön, das in der Garrard Sparte mehr gibt. Selbst für ein 1210 hab ich ein neues Lager bekommen, länger die Welle als beim original, für ne dicke Teller Matte.

    Ach früher in den 80ern gab es noch viel besseres Zeugs. Zu zeiten als Industriekarten noch repariert, statt einfach ausgetauscht wurden. Sogar in den 90ern noch.

    Man kann froh sein, das die Bungard favorit noch existiert.

    Hello,

    I send Gaetano some information in a personal message. He will translate it i hope and share it here.

    The main subject was if you are going to replace the original platter you better make the diameter bigger to create more flywheel effect. I suggested hinm to make the center part of 300 mmm durchschnit pom material 15/20 mm thickness ( depending on the length of the spindle!) and the last 30 mm on the outside of the 360 mm platter something like 40/50 mm thickness. The 360 mm is limited by the arm being used.

    Show me that Germany is the company of good cars and Zundapp. My ideas come from French magazines mainly. I am sure some of the members here can calculate the flywheel effect difference between to 3 kilogrammes weight platters. One thicker platter 300 mm and one a little thinner but with 60 mm more diameter and more thickness on the outside.

    I remember reading in one of the French magazines i have about some Japanese people creating a turntable with a MUCH larger diameter than the standard 300mm. They did do for some kind of show and all the visitors were begeisterd.

    Of course with a bigger platter there will be more fly effect. The bigger the better.

    Let us wait here for someone here to calculate the effect of moving a bigger part of the platter weight to the outside of the platter.

    Show us and i will send you some tubes lol.

    Greetings, Ed

    Of course it is always better to have more weight outside at the platter. You have to keep in mind, that the complete weight of the platter should be the same as the original one. As I remember the original aloy platter plus the rubber mat has a weight of 2.5 kg. The Torlon trust pad is constructed and also the electronic is designed for this weight.

    Hello,

    I found information on the internet that the famous Nelson Pass is using the sp10 with a much heavier stainless steel platter 8 kilo. SO it can be done but me too if i would every modify an sp10 i would try to use a pom platter with no mat and a weight close to the original one but make it 360 mm ( depending on the arm of course). AND try to concentrate the weight on the outside for sure.

    Maybe even take some material from the '' zarge '' so the part of the platter where the platter is thicker can '' sink down '' into that zarge.

    Pom needs a special kind of glue! but it is very easy to use with '' gewindebohrer ''

    Maybe make a sandwich from several 10 mm thickness pom and lead sheets. Or make several reservoiirs in the pom zarge and fill them with bleischrott.

    Greetings, Ed

    That's is amazing, two guys i hab intension to bring togheter finally found here.

    I read with calm your massage Ed.

    I Don't have idea about company to make a Platter of POM for me.

    I like analogschmaus hin SP10 With POM Platter very much.

    Hello,

    I have done some calculation with an online calculator.

    If you calculate the inertia of a platter 4000 grammes 360 mm diameter and you want the same inertia with a 300mm platter you need to change the weight from 4000 to 5760 grammes.

    This is a paste and copy from the internet:

    The online calculator could not calculate a platter where most of the mass is far away from the center. BUT then the differences will be even bigger.

    You need a big machine to mill a 360 mm platter and pom rundstab with 400 mm diameter is hard to find. Platte 40 mm thickness can be found ebay germany. They can '' frasen '' circle 370 mm and then take it to a company where they can make it perfectly round.

    Ask around.

    Greetings, Ed

    Did you "read" only about the use of Pass SP10 or did you see it? Some people always read or hear that someone use...

    I think you could not see the trust pad and you do not know if the electronic cirquit is customized for the "Nelson Pass" SP10". You can use of course a heavy platter but you have to check the technicl values after your "tune". If you cant measure the sped drivd with a measing instrument ony with a mat it is not measing at all. Also the ruble amount mentioned by Technics is measured by DIN and "it is" because I can not meausre and have no idea how it looks like after a while. You see a lot of user of SP10 with a cupper mat and heavy platter and all writes: it is super. I will not a better engineer than the Technics engineers. I think they mad a great job and great product with the SP10 machines. You find always some user do not understand the basics of the engineering and works with half knowledge on this items and think they improoves the units. The former owner told me always before the unit runs perfect, the unit sound great and needs no service at all. Bcause they never opend the motor and the bearing needs no oil........I saw a lot of trust pads, after opening the motor like the one on the photos.

    I am sure they are 10...units outside with trust pads looks like the one onn the photos.

    Hi,


    I think that increasing the platter weight within reasonable limits won't do serious harm to the thrust pad.

    The Q is what is 'reasonable'?

    Are 50% up still ok, or will 100% up still be manageable?

    And even if the bearing doesn't suffer from the increased weight .... what parameter(s) does one expect to improve?

    Mass in itself is not related to any acoustic parameter(?) but more mass typically means increased inertia.

    Unless You know a fair bit about control loop theory and You are able to recalculate the values of the control loop parts the result will very probabely be inferior to the original.

    Besides its almost blasphemy to 'fudge around' unknowingly with such an iconic piece of technology :/8)


    jauu

    Calvin

    ..... it builds character!


    gewerblicher Teilnehmer

    Hello,

    I read that Nelson Pass used a much heavier platter on the SP10 he uses on shows where he demonstrates his amps. That is all. Why doubt if that is true?

    But i think it is better for the more average diy people to keep the weight of the pom platter about the same as the original platter plus the mat. Not sure if a pom platter needs a mat too because its characteristics are close to vinyl.

    After reading about French audiophiles who did visit Japanese friends like Mr. Koimuzi? from Onken company and reading about turntables i am convinced that maximizing the flywheel effect is a good thing! At work we have machines with very high tech motors and we have the same kind of machines with motors 40 years old and using fly wheel effect. They old ones supply a much bigger '' power ''

    If the flywheel effect will give a platter that is much more difficult to '' disturb '' then that is a good thing.

    Look at what EMT did with their 927 and 930.

    Start reading the French L'audiophile magazine. You can read the ideas of MR Ikeda ( yes the one from Fidelity research and the Ikeda arms, cartridges and mc transformers)They can be found online.

    I am not making any money sharing my ideas. I dont have 10 pom platters that i want to sell.

    bye bye, Ed

    i can't give a reasonable answer but don't stop it cause it is very interesting to read. I Don't have so much experience like you.

    I have choice to polish original Platter or to get one of POM like analogschmaus cause i like it. There are some guys in USA, they have made One heavy of stainless steel. For SP 10 MK 2.

    Hello,

    I had a friend in France who used a Verdier turntable and i did lasercut ( so tight enough tolerance) stainless steel discs to make his platter more heavy. I am not sure if he used them. He was already old when i visited him so i am almost sure he passed away .

    I think stainless steel is to hard and you will surely need a mat.

    Better is zamak or zamac that Thorens did use.

    A few decades ago some people started using all kind of '' plastic '' like materials because they were closer to the caracteristics of vinyl. And they dont sound like a bell like the micro platters.

    Take a look at what Teres did 10? years ago. Perspex or wood platters damped with bleischrott.

    The French made platters with layers of perspex and lead.

    Pom is a rather new material much easier to machine than pvc and nylon. And there people saying it works perfect for platters.

    The only problem it needs special glue. But it is easy to get some '' gewinde'' into it.


    If i remember correctly Scheu did have a special '' hole '' at the bottomside of the platter to be able to clamp it into a milling machine.


    Like i said Teres used acrylic with bleischrott. With lead being so dense you need the holes that will be filled with bleischrott at the same distances from the spindle. But if you ask a professional company to do it it is easy. Their machines will do exactly what they are told to do!

    Making a platter with 360 mm diameter where the center part is 10/20 mm thick and the 30 mm on the outside 40 mm thick. In this 40 mm part you will ask them to '' frasen '' a circle with 15 mm diameter holes in an equal distance pattern. Fill these holes with exactly the same weight of bleischrott and you will have a nice platter!

    Lead is 11,3 grammes for cubic cm and pom is 1,4 grammes if i remember well so you will have to check the weight.

    I will be back in a few weeks. Greetings, Ed

    I don´t know exactly where the weight of the platter is used as a input parameter in the control unit. I will try to find out. May Mr. Langer from his own dd units or Stefan Strohmetz from "stst" who produced this kind of turntables for years know more about that. In my opinion it makes no sence to discus such a issue and no ones knows how the cirquit was designed. There are a lot of "DIY" working after "try and error". They do not know what they are realy doing, getting a reasonable result. If someone knows Mr. Langer or Mr. Strohnetz it will be much more helpfull getting infos from them.