Platine Verdier - die Legende lebt


  • Tja, und da frage ich mal die Experten, wonach Ihr justiert?
    Irgendwo habe ich mal eine Höhe der Polymerbetonzarge von der Unterlage mit ca. 32-33mm aufgeschnappt. Ob das wirklich so sein sollte, kann ich nicht sicher sagen...

    Laut Herrn Aschenbrenner sollte die Zarge (A23 -Version) soweit wie möglich runter, ohne aufzusetzen. Bei mir wären das ca. 30mm und da ist noch Luft nach unten. Ich habe von ATA den Tonarmausleger aus Buche (leicht), so das es z.B. mit dem Bronzeausleger theoretisch noch weiter runter gehen könnte. Bei mir ist rechte Schraube maximal rausgedreht. Angeblich sollen bei meiner Verdier auch stärkere Federn verbaut sein. :/

  • Hello,

    On the Verdier website in France you can read that they had quality problems with the original basis platte. Sometimes when they ordered them there would be some that were not like they should be.

    That is why they started using the other material.

    I added an extra basis platte( in fact two bolted together) to my original Scheu basis platte.

    I '' designed '' it myself and asked my co worker to draw it on a computer and make a file that contains all the dimensions. I know a company that sells ALL kind of plastics , ask them for POM material, send them the file. When they get the file it will take a few minutes to make a program so a CNC machine can make it. IF next year i wanna make it again i send them the file and i will get exactly the same ( i guess 0,1 or less toleranz). When you use a company that has less high tech machines this can be difficult. This company use vacuum technique to the material in the same place during the complete machining process. The machine starts, sometimes it will take another tool, there is a complete collection of tools in the machine and the program will tell the machine what to do and which tool to use.

    The motor base i use was also machined at this shop.. It was a few hundred Euros because there is only one like this in the world.

    The boden seite and the oben seite must in parallel because the belt should stay in one position.

    All the corners are a little '' rounded'' so not completely 90 degrees.

    There are different dimension holes on almost every side.

    There is some gewindeschneiden too. Of course can do this myself but POM is new to me. I am used to all kind of metals!

    The problem Verdier had with the basis platte can also occur with the motor. If they bought 500 motors 35 years ago and 10 years ago they wanna have the same probably it will not be available anymore so they will have to use another one. My motor bought directly at factory cost 71$ if you buy 100 it will be 31$ . SO you will buy 200 for 25$ each. Of course you can a different more expensive one. They have hundreds.

    Greetings, Eduard

    P.s Because i have one pulley machined for tape and another one for rubber belt i just bought an extra motor.From California to the Netherlands in 6 days

  • Na kommt, das "ich weiß es aber besser als du" ist doch jetzt für diesen Thread kontraproduktiv.

    Dass bereits so viele Infos hier zusammen gekommen sind, ist doch ein Highlight. Macht doch bitte da weiter.

    Entspanntes Hören, Frank


    ] Vorhandensein von Musik - Zuhandensein von Klang [

  • hallo zusammen


    hab die a23 mal gegoogelt:


    ♫ Platine Verdier La Nouvelle Platine Verdier mit EMT Bronze Basis - online kaufen (hsga-gmbh.de)


    auf dem dritten Bild sieht man unterhalb der Bronzebasis etwas, dass aussieht wie eine Flügelmutter...


    ist das so? ...das wäre ja die genialste Verstellmöglichkeit überhaupt !


    Dass die Aufstellung der PV durch Federn entkoppelt//bedämpft wird

    ist neben dem Magnetlager sicher Basis ihres Erfolgs...


    würde sehr gern mal eine PV hören... Raum AC-K-D + 100 km würd ich fahren


    viele Grüße und bleibt gesund


    Josef

    (Neben-) Gewerblicher Teilnehmer

    Direktvertrieb von Absorbern und Plattenpucks zur Reduzierung von Schwingungen in Audiogeräten

    klick hier

  • Hello,

    In the eighties they used aluminium and there was some clearance so you could adjust distance between tellerlager und armlager.

    Verdier also suggested to modify the aluminium base so part of the mounting construction from the SME can be replaced. He said the SME base is not rigid enough.

    There have been people who added lead to the aluminium.

    Or have one machined from polished copper both good for vibrations and stability.

    GreetingsEduard

  • Hello,

    Monsieur Verdier more than 40 years ago when i started going to Paris to buy parts for my Hiraga amp.

    Verdier also modified the TD124 teller by gluing a 10 mm thick '' blei scheibe '' on top of the platter.. Almost all diy turntables used lead for '' vibration management'' If you dont have high tech equipment you can locate vibration with a stethoscope..

    There is a company in my country that has a solution for rubber used in the Verdier that has become hard. Long time ago i saw it but i thought it was for mounting the motor.

    I have met people in Asia who use products made by a japanese company called Taica. Some people use it to mount a camera in a drone. To make them work perfectly you must select the one with the right optimum load.. I expect it to have a longer lifetime than rubber.

    The two drawings are from another Frenchman who published in that famous magazine. He made a turntable with two motors and two arms. This is like basic physics but he says the center of gravity should be in the lowest position possible and the center of gravity should be close to ''teller lager '' AND the springs should be at the same distance from that center so they will have the same load and work the same.

    Greetings,Eduard

  • Aluminium ist nicht gleich Aluminium,

    diese Übersicht über die industriell verfügbaren Aluminiumarten

    https://www.1stchoicemetals.co.uk/aluminium/grades-guide/

    ist ganz interessant.


    Ich habe mal einen 5cm Aluteller bekommen für ein Scheu-Lager, das klang scheixxe, muss wohl das "verkehrte" Aluminium gewesen sein. Auch sehe ich für alle, die eine PV nachbauen, ein Riesenproblem. Falsche Materialwahl führt schnell zum musikalischen Disaster.


    beste Grüße, Hartmut

  • Als String empfehle ich einen sogenannten Beilauffaden. Diese sind sehr dünn und elastisch und werden etwa 14 bis 18 Mal gelegt. Das ist ein ziemliches Gefriemel, da sehr dehnbar und extrem dünn. Der Knoten erfolgt mit viel Geduld. Dadurch, dass er so klein ist, gibt es anschließend auch kein Pling. https://www.ebay.de/itm/1-60-1…1abb77:g:17EAAOSw9N1Vw47A

    Guten Tag ,


    von dem rate ich ab. Vor Jahren ein Vorschlag von mir ,der auch klanglich gut funzt.

    Das Problem, der hält nicht auf Dauer und reist.

    Ist man nicht dabei wickeln sich die dünnen Fäden um das Pulley und können den

    Motor blockieren. Damit himmelte ich mir ein Motor.


    ich stellte den schon vor und bin seit Jahren mit dem Faden zufrieden.

    28EFFB84-B01C-47F1-9E20-8A7B93DECA9E.jpeg

    wie hier in 0,5 oder 0,8 geht auch.


    Ludwig

  • Hello ,

    At the company where i have been working for 30 years we made some parts for this flying car. Some of the materials used came with a big load of specifications so i know about materials.

    With aluminium you have types that can easily machined, types that can be bend and types that will break when bend .

    The aluminium used by Verdier in the eighties was Dural( AU4G) But material names change sometimes. I know they made a study about the shape of the teller. If it looks like a bell it will sound like a bell!. Like some of the Micro Seiki!

    Verdier wrote an article about the EMT 930/927. It does have a teller that looks like a bell. But it had a rubber ring around the outside, 90% of its weight is close to the edge ( yes) and there are 4 big holes that will stop vibrations. Usually bells have just one hole.


    You can build something similar to a PV. You can copy some ideas that are useful in most turntables. He wrote a lot about how to isolate the vibrations of the motor. He told us about the prototypes. MAYBE the original motor is still the best?? But when it isnt made anymore they will have to use another one.. I think the latest invention is the BLDC motor.

    With the right knowledge and equipment an engineer can probably make a good design with a good quality motor., My FIRST turntable was a Dual 701. Yes direct drive but not bad!. Second one was a Thorens TD125 more music!!

    The old people here will remember Hifi exclusive magazine. They tested Mitch Cotter turntable base with Denon dp80? motor unit and 66S arm.. I have heard the Denon DP1000 and the Thorens Prestige.. BUT i prefer the Verdier.

    Greetings, Eduard

  • Auch hier... ist so ganz sicher nicht richtig…. die Federn sind im Aufnahmekäfig durch die Lüftungsschraube nur so zu bewegen, dass eine Nivellierung ( ins Wasser bringen ) im Rahmen möglich ist…nicht aber eine Federkennung-Veränderung durch Kompression/ Dekompression.

    Wenn man die Feder soweit gegen die Käfigabdichtung schraubt erreicht er zwar das von dir beschriebene.. aber ohne jegliche sinnvolle Wirkung auf das gewählte Dämpferkonzept, die Feder sollte in keinem Falle so vorgespannt werden dass sie Höhe und Kennung verändert. Das ist so

    überhaupt nicht gewollt….

    Moin Theo,


    das Thema ist etwas untergegangen und bestimmt von allgemeinem Interesse. Zudem hilft es, hier nützliche Fakten zusammenzutragen.


    Wie optimiert man die Einstellung der PV-Füße?

    Freundlichst
    Karl

  • Hello,

    When i installed the 64S on my Thorens instead of the 64Fx i had to adjust the springs so much that they would not work identically .

    When i bought a Sota Sapphire it has reservoir close to the armboard. After installing the arm you must change the weight of the lead so it will be balanced. THAT is the only way to do it.

    Because probably most of the weight of the Verdier is in the center using an armbase that is not 2 but 3 kilo will not create a real unbalance.

    Greetings, Eduard

  • Hello Eduard,


    because nobody reacted directly to your input, I want to thank you for it - fascinating reading. And I'm a fan of your "Denglish" too!


    Greetings

    Arnold


    p.s. ja ja, zurück zu Deutsch... schöner Thread!

    aufhören, wo andere weitermachen

  • Hello,

    Wie optimiert man die Einstellung der PV-Füße?

    GANZ EINFACH,

    Verdier already wrote in 1979 that you need to position the federn according to a drawing that looks very similar to the one of his friend Delalue.They should be at equal distance from the center of gravite. Delalue decided to go for 4 springs, maybe because of the extra motor?

    But Verdier tells us with 3 springs it is much easier to get the same load on every spring, If you have an old house with a wooden floor a table with 3 legs is easier than 4 legs

    If you make the dreiecke in the drawing bigger you will get more stability which is logic.

    The resonanzfrequenz of the springs should be LOW between 1 and 2 hertz and should not be close the resonanz of the arm/ cartridge combination..

    At the start Verdier tried springs that very '' wobbly ''. He tried putting something liker rubber/foam inside but that caused a kind of short-circuit it reduced the effect of the spring.

    Then he used the idea of compressed air.

    Townshend in the UK uses the same idea. But in the picture 27-6-2020 you can see a very small opening . So when you squeeze it and let it go it will go back to the original dimensions. Normally it is used with a kind of cup on both sides. The upper cup you can move upwards but the strength of the spring remains the same. My Belgian friend who uses a Scheu removed the upper cup., I use them too but most of the pod goes inside the double POM basisplatte.

    They have a few different types for different weights. I think the 3 i am using can take 16 kilo max. each. Minimum must be 8 kilo. You can change the '' wobble '' by change the load,

    Verdier also told us that creating a good support makes everything better. There is someone in France who made a one meter high sandwich of marble en spanplatte total weight above 1000 kilo.

    I used about 35 kilo of home made ( OUTSIDE) blei parts to add vibration killing properties to the level in my rack that support my diy Scheu.

    In the beginning the French said they used the ideas used for tables that support scales to weigh VERY light objects.

    Greetings, Eduard