Platine Verdier - die Legende lebt

  • Allwissender ...

    Es ist ein witziger Zufall, dass im August 1991 in der Hifi-Choice Bilder der Schichtholzbank von Shindo (mit einem Garrard 301 darauf) erschienen sind und Alfredo Campoli (1906 -- 1991) in diesem Jahr verstorben ist, allerdings bereits am 27. März 1991. Und wer hat damals ein Exemplar dieser Hifi-Choice an das A23 geschickt?

    Fremdschäm ...

  • Hello,

    My knowledge is good enough to understand this but it seems some members dont understand it as much as i do haha

    Doch wenn man weiß, wo Vibrationen sind,

    dann kann man sie dort auch bekämpfen...

    und zwar mit / in der Aufstellfläche.

    Suppose you are a retired audiophile and you decided to buy yourself a nice farm which is located a few hundred meters from the mainroad. You will make extra money by selling eggs from a special breed of chicken to private customers. But the private road to your house has a lot of bumps so most eggs are broken before the people get back on the main road. So you tell the customers if they wanna enjoy your eggs they should get a better car?

    Or you could ask some young family members to repair the bumps and order a truckload of sand?

    Every possibility to stop vibrations that can be tackled by the '' aufstellflache '' should be used. Usually the frequency range and the level from the vibrations has properties that cannot be handled by a single material/ device. Take a look at the variety of car suspensions. They know what frequencies that need to be damped and after that they will have to adjust them to the weight of the car.

    But the manufacturers of the springs know that the cars are being used in a country where the conditions/quality of the the roads has a certain standard and the road will be flat.

    So being an audiophile you should consider how to make life easy for your turntable. In my previous house i was using a Sota sapphire turntable that has a chassis. For this one i made a special shape concrete '' block '' by using a wooden mold. The maximum weight was limited by the mounting wall and my muscles. I think it was 72 kilo.

    My diy turntable i mean the elements that are supported by the 3 seismic pods are totally 45/46 kilo together. As you can see the frame is attached to the wall in every corner. The frame of the turntable only support the turntable and tube based phono preamp and is not connected directly by metal to the other levels.

    Inside the frame there is a '' home made '' 25 mm thick sandwich containing wood, tar, copper, iron, aluminium, brass ,lead,stainless steel and a variety of glue. Because my work is related to metal it was easy to do test. If you compare the sound ( a stethoscope) between a sheet of 2,3 and 4 mm aluminium and two sheets of 1 mm aluminium connected to each other by a thin layer of glue it is very clear that the last one is better. I did a lot of testing but did not collect all the '' data '' . If you consider the glue and tar to interconnect the different materials together also as a layer there must have 15 layers or more. IF you would use the iron or the steel layer in the middle of the sandwich the vibration will kind of bounce back because it is much harder than the rest. To get the best result it should absorb some vibrations and pass what is left to the next layer. So my idea to use thin layer like 0,5 for the the hard materials.

    I molded some lead elements which are attached to the top layer of the sandwich. In the 3 areas where the feet will be i made 3 separate blocks ( plus 3 kilo each) that can be attached by something that will couple or decouple the feet from the sandwich.

    IF you live on a ground floor there are many ways to make your Verdier sound better.

    TAKE CARE when using a combination of sand and wood:

    The sand should be dry.

    Especially if you are using a thick '' layer '' of sand the forces being '' given '' to the wooden panels are huge. The backplate of my speakers were something like 40 mm of sand in between two wooden panels each 22,18,25 mm they would bulge without reinforcements. Adding strength by construction is easier than using thicker panels.

    Greetings, Eduard

  • Hello,

    If you read the publications about turntable design and turntable support design in French l'Audiophile magazine. There are some keywords that have been used for decades.

    The frequency, speed and level of the vibrations, keeping the center of gravity close to the platter bearing and as low as possible, flywheel effect of the platter, use of sandwich construction, use of lead, use of dry sand, use of stethoscope if you dont have more advanced equipment, taking care of the '' aufstellflache '' is very rewarding and much easier than modifying a 7000 euro turntable and you will need some money to bribe your partner. OR install it when no one is around!

    The turntable used with the drawing in the attachment has some of the ideas also used in the Verdier but it is heavier. To work perfectly the support should be heavier than the turntable. It is 3 to 4 times heavier but sometimes you are restricted by your house!.

    At first he used the same material as Verdier for the mounting plate ( granito/terrazzo) But he switched to a sandwich of 20,15 and 10 mm plexiglass each with 2,5 mm lead sheet in between that offered a better absorption pattern.

    The mounting plate is standing upon a granito plate of 32 kilo kind of buried in 35 kilo of sand.

    I think with the right mindset you can make it look nice!

    Greetings, eduard

    P.s use google translate for the different elements in the attachment

  • Quote

    Sand ist Geschmackssache ...

    Du sollst den ja nicht essen :)

    Spaß beiseite, Sand ist das ideale Material um Flächen zu beruhigen. Umweltfreundlich, riecht nicht, günstig. Die Kehrseite: Die Verarbeitung der Gehäuse, Hörner, Racks, usw. ist sehr aufwändig. In der Regel muss doppelwandig gebaut werden. Den Aufwand können nur wenige treiben.

    Viele Grüße


  • Hello,

    My sand filled wooden horns. 2 mm special wood with 8 or 10 mm sand in between. Bought them in Audiophile shop in Paris in the eighties. The lower frequency cabinets i made myself.

    Greetings, eduard

  • Hello,

    They used a kind of material to entkoppelung '' between the feet and the wooden '' box ''

    There is also material between granito and the plexiglass sandwich.

    These two have to be carefully chosen.

    Later they made the 4 legs thicker and also changed the threaded metal in between them from 14 to 18 mm

    The sand below the granito was 12 cm high and making it 20 cm gave an improvement.

    But the first '' attempt '' already gave a big improvement.

    Greetings, Eduard

  • Moin Jungs,

    heute Morgen habe ich versucht einen Freund zu beschreiben was eigentlich eine Platine ausmacht:/

    Um das ganze einfach zu verkürzen und auf den Punkt zu bringen, war meine Antwort ganz simpel.

    Es geht nach meiner Meinung bei der Platine weniger um höher schneller weiter, sondern einfach nur darum geil Musik zu hören.

    Ich bin oft beim hören richtig weggesunken und das nicht nur vom anstoßen:D

    Der Groove ist einfach immer da und darum gehts doch;)

    Grüße Harry

    Rille,Röhre,Horn und co…… 8)

  • Hello,

    I made a mistake in the description of the turntable support there is no material to decouple the wooden box from the concrete pillars. That is the idea usually used in a professional support for instruments to measure /weigh VERY precisely. Usually those instruments themselves have a considerably weight. In these set ups the mass of the support is 80 to 100 times bigger than the one of the instrument . The French describe it as creating a '' virtual mass ''

    Many of my writings here are not to much related to the Verdier turntable but most information came from France and from the group of people where JC Verdier belonged too.

    Changing rubbers with Taica products could be a cheap and sensible modification/ maintenance.

    Of course what you could do is making your own turntable support.

    There is a lot of info to be found on sandwich construction of materials ( some people call it CLD )

    Pantzerholz from Germany seems to be praised worldwide!!

    Most people will say ''My Verdier is perfect''. Ok your Verdier is perfect BUT your support will have room for improvement.

    So one of the members or group of members should start a separate thread about building your own turntable support.

    Greetings, Eduard

  • Hello,

    You see lots of info to be found on the internet.

    But not everyone wants to spend a few thousand euros after already spending considerable money for a Verdier.

    So for the people willing to spend less than 1000 euro for a nice looking and sound improving turntable support diy ideas could be welcome.

    Dont forget that the person running this business selling these things knows that if he would raise the weight of the support from 100 to 300 kilo it might even be better BUT then transport cost will go through the roof.

    And it will have to be constructed in a modular way so you and your partner can climb the stairs with 5 elements each weighing less than 80 kilo.

    If you go for 150 kilo of sand in a diy '' construction '' you just have to walk several times with a sand filled bucket.

    Happy building.

    Greetings, Eduard

  • Also ich finde die Sachen vor Norbert echt preiswürdig. Da gibt es in der Zubehörszene ganz andere Kandidaten. Und entscheidend ist doch die Tatsache, dass die zugehörigen Dämpfer nach den Verdier'schen Ideen funktionieren. Und es gibt einen Grund, warum A23 sich von Sand entfernt hat. Im Zweifel Vollholz. Hat Signatur, aber eine gute :-)

  • Hello,

    I can see Norbert uses the same idea like Verdier who wanted to keep eigenresonanz as low as possible.

    Of course the idea of using sand for something that depends a lot on a bearing seems a bit tricky.

    Pantzerholz seems a very nice material to use with lot of the desired properties but it seems hard to machine without proper tools. But properly if you buy a few parts in the exact dimensions it would be able to make a wooden box and fill it with sand. Of course commercial companies dont wanna sell something that can be reproduced with a little effort. Dont forget if a website is named it is there to make money.

    If you spend a saturday to make a nice looking, well constructed Pantzerholz box and the week before you diy some concrete elements to be turned into a platform. You can ask your neighbour/partner to put the box on top of the platform. The next week you will drive to Hornbach and use sunlight, gas stove or barbecue to dry sand. If you have a cheap source for lead you can use that too one way or another.

    Probably a 5000 euro could be better . You can always ask him if he is willing to bring one to your house for a trial! Invite some friends and see if it makes sense to make a change,

    Greetings, eduard

  • Hallo Eduard,

    deine gewichtsintensive Unterbau-Ideen kann man vielleicht in einem soliden Eigenheim umsetzen (wenn es auch optisch unauffällig geht) - ich wohne z.B. in einer 2 Zimmer-Altbauwohnung, da musste ich schon einen Statiker holen, um eine Unbedenklichkeitserklärung für 6000 Platten und ein paar Bücher zu bekommen.

    Deshalb hängen meine beiden Plattenspieler - zusammen weniger als 100 Kilo - an der Wand (sowieso nicht das Schlechteste) bzw. stehen auf einem windigen, selbst gezimmerten Multiplex-Wandregal.

    Die besten Bänke und Füße passen halt auch nicht unbedingt in jeden ästhetischen Rahmen.

    Gruß Arnold

    aufhören, wo andere weitermachen